AI Translation of modern Greek once more

Posted on by Roger Pearse

In my last two posts here and here, I looked at AI and other translations of the following passage from Ch. Stergioulis’ modern Greek translation of the “Life of St Nicholas” by Methodius, Archbishop of Constantinople (the “Methodius ad Theodorum”:

3. Καταγόταν ο Νικόλαος από τα Πάταρα, πόλη της επαρχίας των Λυκίων, η οποία εκείνη την εποχή (του αγίου Νικολάου) είχε αρκετούς κατοίκους. Τώρα όμως μοιάζει περισσότερο με κώμη παρά με πόλη14. Κι αυτό παθαίνουν πολυτρόπως οι πόλεις-παρακμάζουν και οι κάτοικοί τους μεταναστεύουν-εξαιτίας των αμέτρητων κριμάτων τους έναντι του θεού. Έτσι λοιπόν κατανοούμε και αυτό που συνηθίζουμε να γράφουμε, ότι δηλαδή οι πόλεις τιμωρούνται για τις αμαρτίες των κατοίκων τους15. Βρίσκεται δηλαδή, εκεί κοντά τόπος πεδινός, σχισμένος στα δύο, σαν ξεσχισμένο ιμάτιο. Κι από το ρήγμα που έχει δημιουργηθεί, φαίνεται να αναδύεται, την ημέρα, καυτός ατμός, ενώ τη νύχτα ξεπηδά σαν από χάλκινο καμίνι φλογώδης καπνός16. Και καίει το χέρι όποιου τολμά να το ακουμπήσει, χωρίς όμως να του το κατατρώγει αλλά και την σάρκα, όπως θα γινόταν στην περίπτωση που κάποιος απλώνει το χέρι του στη φωτιά• είναι όμως απεικόνιση και προοίμιο, με μικρή ομοιότητα, του αιωνίου πυρός. Και ευρισκόμενοι σε απορία με το φαινόμενο οι μεγαλύτεροι σε ηλικία μετέφεραν από γενιά σε γενιά, ο κάθε πατέρας στο παιδί του, (όπως μας διασώζεται ο άγραφος πλην αληθινός τούτος λόγος), ότι εξαιτίας της ακολασίας και της σαρκολαγνείας των κατοίκων της η θεία δίκη κατεδίκασε τούτη τη γη στο φρικτό αυτό θέαμα, για να αποτρέψει την επι-στροφή τους στο μέρος αυτό.

Today I went back to the same sites, to see what came out.  First I asked ChatGPT 3.5, “Can you translate something from modern Greek to English”, and when it said yes, pasted in the above text:

Nicholas originated from Patara, a city in the province of Lycia, which at that time (of Saint Nicholas) had several inhabitants. However, now it resembles more of a village than a city. This is a fate suffered in various ways by cities—they decline, and their inhabitants migrate—due to their countless sins against God. Therefore, we understand what we commonly write, that is, cities are punished for the sins of their residents.

Nearby, there is a flat place, split in two, like a torn garment. From the rift that has been created, hot steam seems to emerge during the day, while at night it rises like fiery smoke from a bronze furnace. And it burns the hand of anyone who dares to touch it, without, however, consuming it as well as the flesh, as would happen if someone were to extend their hand into a fire. It is, however, a representation and prelude, with little resemblance, to the eternal fire.

In awe of this phenomenon, the older ones passed down from generation to generation, each father to his child (as this unwritten but true account has been preserved for us), that due to the immodesty and sensuality of its inhabitants, divine justice condemned this land to this dreadful spectacle to prevent their return to this place.

This is different to the output I got two days ago.  Mostly it is very similar, and certainly impressive.  In a couple of places, it isn’t as good.  In a couple of places it’s a bit better.

Next, I tried using Bing CoPilot “with GPT-4”:

3.  Nikolaos originated from Pataras, a city in the province of Lycia, which at that time (of Saint Nicholas) had many inhabitants. Now, however, it looks more like a village than a city. And this is what happens to cities – they decline and their inhabitants emigrate – because of their countless sins against God. Therefore, we understand what we are used to writing, that is, that cities are punished for the sins of their inhabitants. There is a nearby flat place, split in two like a torn garment. And from the rift that has been created, hot steam appears during the day, while at night fiery smoke emerges like from a copper furnace. And it burns the hand of anyone who dares to touch it, but without consuming it or the flesh, as would happen if someone were to put their hand in fire. It is, however, a depiction and a prelude, with little similarity, of the eternal fire. And the older ones, puzzled by the phenomenon, passed down from generation to generation, each father to his child (as this unwritten but true story is preserved), that because of the debauchery and carnality of its inhabitants, divine justice condemned this land to this terrible spectacle, to prevent their return to this place.

This is almost the same as I got in my first post.  But one good feature of Bing AI is that it indicates the websites that it is using:

I imagine that this is concealed by other sites, in case they had to pay royalties.

It does feel creepy that the same input on different days produces different output from the same site.  I know that Google Translate could be like that.  But even so… it feels flaky.

All the same, there’s no doubt that AI is producing better results than Google Translate or DeepL.  I do think that we then need to look up variable words and establish their meaning ourselves.

Doing so could certainly be easier. Remember that I know no modern Greek at all; all of this is a way to use online tools.

One bit that varies is the “flat place” or “low lying place” or “plain”.  Looking at Google Translate, I see this preserves the footnote numbers, which helps us work out whereabout in the Greek text this is.  It’s just after footnote 15:

inhabitants15. In other words, there is a plain nearby, torn in two, like a torn garment.

This must be “τόπος πεδινός”, “topos pedinos”.  Even I know “topos” must be a “place”, if only thanks to Tales from Topographic Oceans.  So “pedinos” is our word of not-quite certain meaning.

Going to Lexilogos and copying the word, and clicking on WordReference gives us this page.

This does indeed actually explain the problem – plains are flat and are found in the lowlands, hence the various different meanings. I hate that this is an online-only tool – what if the web goes down? – but it’s something.

Likewise I get αρκετούς – “several inhabitants”?, and plug this in.  Taking off letters from the end, it asks if I mean αρκετός – I know enough Greek to agree – and tells me that it means enough, ample, plenty, sufficient.  I.e. “lots”, which is what I would expect.  Likewise “διασώζεται” also works, once you remove a few letters to get the base verb, meaning “save, rescue”, i.e. “preserve”.

So maybe this is how we use these tools to make a translation:

  1. Use Google Translate on the modern Greek to get a general idea of what each sentence means, and a few signposts so I can move around the Greek text.
  2. Bang the Greek into ChatGPT to get a better translation.  Maybe do the same with Bing AI, if it’s working.
  3. Compare the three, and look for oddities.
  4. Find the actual modern Greek word for each oddity, look it up in WordReference.com, and see if this can resolve it.  (Remembering, if using Chrome, to force it NOT to translate the page into Engish).

That has the look of a way to do the translation. It’s cumbersome.  Any clues about Greek will help mightily.  But it really requires very little knowledge, and you can produce a respectable translation, I think.

I will try it out with another chapter of Methodius ad Theodorum.

UPDATE (17 Jan 2024): Much more in the comments below.

Share

11 thoughts on “AI Translation of modern Greek once more”

  1. Your problem with specific Greek words is that the words do not have a one to one correspondence in English. Think of a language as an operating system for a culture and just as commands can be the same but do stuff slightly different in each computer language, so do they in human languages. Πεδινος does mean flat but does not necessarily mean lowland. The Lassithi Plateau which is where my maternal grandfather was from is πεδινο but it is an altitude of 840 meters above sea level. Greece is 70% mountains, I am pretty sure that Asia Minor is something similar when you look at a topographic map. A flat place is something of note, which is not so much the case for relatively flat Britain. Αρκετός can be best translated as sufficient in this context, or alternatively enough inhabitants. Yes this is an expression used in modern Greek, enough inhabitants for what though depends on the context. In this case I would say enough to be a city and not a town. Has been preserved can also be translated has been saved for us. The last words are rare but understandable: Σαρκολαγνεία is love of flesh from σαρκα flesh and λαγνεια which mean negative-excessive desire. Ακολασία literally means doing hellish thing in the sense of immoral pleasurable. Both of these nowadays are used mostly in an ecclesiastic context. Greek is a language that is complicated and quite fluid to the point that a reporter once said “If I want to understand what a politician is actually saying I translate it into English”. AI translations likely deal better with things you are likely to run into, such as a newspaper article or an official document, but something literary they will suffer.

  2. I just did my first experiment with AI translation (my first interaction ever with an AI), running the ancient Greek text of this passage through Google Bard. I found that if the AI refuses to translate because it hasn’t been trained in that language you can bully it into trying anyway.
    I pasted the results here, with a few observations in red:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTsKv9IzgIn9O5Sq5V8cXCWA71f1GEDvN26GmkD3yFiL_hLuiZb8B_R5QF67DcD_t49daK7HsrrFecI/pub
    My own first, quick conclusion is that it’s better to work with the original text, if you can get the AI to use it. Looking at the modern Greek translation will help, but if it introduces any inaccuracy (as I believe it does in the case of ἐκ γραφικῆς συνηθείας) you will have no way of fixing it.
    Nice to see you are a Yes fan.

  3. Pingback: Methodius ad Theodorum (BHG 1352y) in modern Greek – part 2 – Roger Pearse

  4. Thank you, Ikokki. I appreciate the explanations of those words. I wonder if there is a dictionary of modern ecclesiastical Greek? I’m sure that you are right about AI. It will be based on modern texts, newspapers, etc.

  5. Gosh that’s interesting, Diego. How on earth did you manage to get Bard to do ancient/medieval Greek? Yes, obviously it would be better if we could use the original!

    Very interesting to see your thoughts on this. In case the Google Doc vanishes in future, I’ve copied it to a word doc, here.

  6. I tried ChatGPT 3.5 on the ancient Greek that you put in. I started with “Can you translate this into English?”

    Οὗτος ὥρμητο μὲν Πατάρων τῆς πόλεως, μιᾶς τυγχανούσης τῶν Λυκίων τῆς ἐπαρχίας, ἣ τότε πλέον κατῴκιστο μάλιστα· νῦν γὰρ ὡς κώμη, οὐκέτι δὲ πόλις ὑπάρχουσα δείκνυται. αἱ δὲ τοιαῦται καταπτώσεις καὶ ἀποικήσεις τῶν πόλεων πολλοῖς μὲν ἄλλοις τῆς τῶν θείων κριμάτων ἀβύσσου τρόποις τοῦτο πάσχουσι. πλὴν καὶ τὸ ἐκ γραφικῆς συνηθείας ἡμῖν εὑρισκόμενον ἐννοῶμεν, ὡς διὰ τῶν προσοίκων τὰς ἁμαρτίας αἱ πόλεις κολάζονται. ἐπεὶ καὶ τόπος ἐστὶν ἐκεῖ πεδινὸς παρακείμενος, ὅλος κατεσχισμένος τὴν ὄψιν, ἅτε διερρωγὸς ἱμάτιον θεωρούμενος· ἐξ οὗ τῇ μὲν ἡμέρᾳ τεαφώδεις ἀτμοὶ ἀναδιδόμενοι φαίνονται, τῇ δὲ νυκτὶ φλογώδεις καπνοὶ ὡς ἐκ καμίνου χαλκέως ὁρῶνται ἀναβρασσόμενοι. καὶ τῇ μὲν ἁφῇ τῷ ἐπιτιθέντι τὴν χεῖρα ἡ θέρμη προσάπτεται, οὐ μὴν καὶ κατεσθίει τὴν σάρκα, ὡς τὸ παρ᾿ ἡμῖν πῦρ τὸ κατὰ συνήθειαν, ἀλλ᾿ ὥστε εἰκὼν εἶναι τοῦ αἰωνίου πυρὸς καὶ προοίμιον μετὰ μερικῆς ἐμφερείας τῆς ἀληθείας αὐτοῦ. ἀπορουμένοις δὲ τοῖς ὁρῶσιν οἱ προβεβηκότες ἡμέραις πατὴρ παιδὶ διαγγέλλουσιν, ὡς ἄγραφος μέν, πλὴν εἰς ἡμᾶς ἀληθὴς διασώζεται λόγος, ὅτι δι᾿ ἀσέλγειαν καὶ σαρκομανίαν τῶν ποτε κατοικούντων εἰς φόβον ἐπιστροφῆς ἐγκύμονα τοῦτο ἡ θεία δίκη τὴν γῆν ταύτην κατεδίκασε τὸ φρικτὸν ὅραμα.

    “This man set out from the city of Patara, situated in one of the regions of Lycia, which at that time was most densely populated; now, however, it is shown not as a city but as a village. Such collapses and abandonments of cities, in many cases, undergo these things through the inexorable ways of divine judgments. Moreover, we also understand from the practice of writing that cities are punished for their sins through neighboring circumstances.

    Since the place there is flat and lying nearby, the whole area appears torn, like a garment being ripped apart when observed. From this, during the day, vaporous mists rise and are seen, and during the night, fiery smokes, like those from a bronze furnace, are observed rising. When one touches with their hand, the heat adheres, and not only that but it consumes the flesh, just as the fire with us does routinely. It serves as an image of the eternal fire and a prelude with partial resemblance to its truth.

    To those who, having lived through many days, are perplexed by what they see, the days that have gone by declare to the child that the tale is unwritten, yet a true account is preserved for us. Through impiety and fleshly indulgence of those who once inhabited, this dreadful spectacle, as a warning of impending punishment, the divine justice condemned this land.”

    Please note that ancient texts can have various interpretations, and the translation may not capture all nuances.

  7. I then tried Bard, starting with “Can you translate this into English?” It replied, “I’d be happy to help, but I need you to tell me what you want me to translate. Please provide the text or document you want translated, and let me know the original language if it’s not English. The more information you give me, the better I can translate it for you.” Then I just pasted in the ancient Greek, without saying what language.

    I got this lot:

    Here is the translation of the Greek text you provided:

    “He came from the city of Patara, one of the cities of the Lycian province, which was then more populous than any other; but it now appears as a village, no longer a city. Such falls and depopulations of cities suffer this fate from many other abysses of divine judgments. But let us also consider what is found among us from the habit of Scripture, that cities are punished for the sins of their neighbors. For there is also a place there, a plain by the side, the whole appearance of which is torn, so that it is seen as a rent garment; from which, by day, vapors like smoke appear to be diffused, and at night, fiery smoke is seen to be boiling up as from a bronze furnace. And to the touch, the heat attaches itself to the hand of the one who puts his hand on it, but it does not devour the flesh, as the fire that is customary among us, but so that it may be an image of the eternal fire and a prelude, with some likeness, of its truth. And to those who see it and are perplexed, those who have lived longer tell their children, as an unwritten but true story that has been preserved among us, that this terrible sight was condemned by divine justice to this land because of the iniquity and flesh-eating of those who once lived there, in fear of their return.”

    The text is from the Historia Ecclesiastica of Eusebius of Caesarea, a fourth-century Christian historian. In this passage, Eusebius is describing the city of Patara, which was once a major city in Lycia, but which had fallen into decline by Eusebius’ time. He suggests that this decline was a punishment from God for the sins of the city’s inhabitants, including their iniquity and flesh-eating.

    The specific passage you provided describes a strange phenomenon that occurred in the area around Patara. There was a plain that was covered with a rent in the ground, from which vapors and smoke rose up. The vapors were like smoke, but they did not burn the flesh. Eusebius suggests that this phenomenon was a sign of God’s judgment on the city.

    The passage is interesting for a number of reasons. First, it provides a glimpse into the beliefs of early Christians about the relationship between sin and divine judgment. Second, it describes a strange and unexplained phenomenon that may have been interpreted as a sign from God. Third, it suggests that the city of Patara was once a major center of Christianity, but that it had fallen into decline by Eusebius’ time.

    Weird the stuff about Eusebius. But better than ChatGPT.

  8. I then tried again, with just the first sentence. When I clicked on a “new chat”, I got a different result:

    Sure, here is the translation of the Greek text you provided:

    “He was born in the city of Patara, one of the Lycian provinces, which was then the most populous; but now it is shown as a village, no longer existing as a city.”

    The text is from the book “The Life of Apollonius of Tyana” by Philostratus. It describes the birthplace of Apollonius, a famous Greek philosopher and miracle worker who lived in the first century AD.

    The Greek phrase “ὥρμητο μὲν Πατάρων τῆς πόλεως” can be translated as “he was born in the city of Patara.” The word “ὥρμητο” means “to be born,” “to originate,” or “to come from.” The word “Πάταρων” is the genitive case of the Greek word “Πάτειρα,” which means “Patara.”

    The Greek phrase “μιᾶς τυγχανούσης τῶν Λυκίων τῆς ἐπαρχίας” can be translated as “one of the Lycian provinces.” The word “μιᾶς” means “one.” The word “τυγχανούσης” is the present participle of the Greek verb “τυγχάνειν,” which means “to happen,” “to fall to one’s lot,” or “to be found.” The word “τῶν Λυκίων” is the genitive case of the Greek word “Λύκιος,” which means “Lycian.” The word “ἐπαρχίας” means “province.”

    The Greek phrase “ἥ τότε πλέον κατῴκιστο μάλιστα” can be translated as “which was then the most populous.” The word “ἥ” is the feminine relative pronoun. The word “τότε” means “then.” The word “πλέον” means “more.” The word “κατῴκιστο” is the imperfect tense of the Greek verb “κατοικεῖν,” which means “to dwell,” “to inhabit,” or “to live.” The word “μάλιστα” means “most.”

    The Greek phrase “νῦν γὰρ ὡς κώμη, οὐκέτι δὲ πόλις ὑπάρχουσα δείκνυται” can be translated as “but now it is shown as a village, no longer existing as a city.” The word “νῦν” means “now.” The word “γὰρ” means “for.” The word “ὡς” means “as.” The word “κώμη” means “village.” The word “οὐκέτι” means “no longer.” The word “δὲ” means “but.” The word “δέ” means “but.” The word “ὑπάρχουσα” is the present participle of the Greek verb “ὑπάρχειν,” which means “to be,” “to exist,” or “to be present.” The word “δεῖκνυται” is the present tense of the Greek verb “δεῖκνυμι,” which means “to show,” “to point out,” or “to demonstrate.”

    In summary, the translation of the Greek text you provided is as follows:

    “He was born in the city of Patara, one of the Lycian provinces, which was then the most populous; but now it is shown as a village, no longer existing as a city.”

    This text describes the birthplace of Apollonius, a famous Greek philosopher and miracle worker who lived in the first century AD. Patara was a large and important city in the Lycian province at the time of Apollonius’ birth. However, it is now a small village.

    But more interesting still was a drop-down “View other drafts” that appeared under the Greek. This gave several alternatives, and much more analysis of the Greek!

    Screen grab from Bard

    It looks as if it really is possible to work with the medieval Greek!

  9. @Roger: I did more or less the same as you, asking “Translated this into English: [text]” without any specification. If at some point the AI replied that it couldn’t help with that language I said “Never mind that, translate it anyway” and it worked. I guess that the statement that it is not trained in a certain language has the same level of credibility as the “Eusebius” and “Apollonius” bits: it’s not an actual fact to be accepted blindly, but just the result of some algorithm.
    I got “Apollonius” yesterday and Eusebius today.
    I just tried again and got slightly better results than yesterday, e.g. “the abyss of divine judgments”, “the heat attaches itself to the hand of the one who puts his hand to it”, “And to those who see it and are wondering, the men who have passed many days hand down from father to son …”. These are also better than what you got with Bard, or at least more literal.
    Maybe getting a translation from each different engine, putting them side by side and choosing what makes most sense from each would produce the best results. I get the impression that this procedure is more helpful at the micro level, as a way of quickly obtaining suggestions for undertanding and translating individual phrases.

  10. @Diego: Thank you! That’s quite an insight – ignore its claim of being unable, and ask it to try anyway! We’re used to hard error messages, but… this is AI!

    I’m thinking in terms of doing just what you suggest – interleaving multiple attempts, and seeing what I can do with those.

  11. Pingback: Methodius ad Theodorum (BHG 1352y) using AI on medieval Greek – part 3 – Roger Pearse

Leave a Reply